tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post4343985031136752433..comments2024-03-22T08:07:47.253+00:00Comments on Alan Winfield's Web Log: Could we experience the workings of our own brains?Alan Winfieldhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08263812573346115168noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-64373045024376677452015-10-08T11:02:33.607+01:002015-10-08T11:02:33.607+01:00immortality: in body the important is the head, in...immortality: in body the important is the head, in head the important is the brain, in brain the important is...THE MEMORY, which is, simply, what we aretonyonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08253501266473243514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-78658262835727208962013-03-04T16:03:44.270+00:002013-03-04T16:03:44.270+00:00I would suggest that as serviceable as our tools m...I would suggest that as serviceable as our tools may be in constructing an "everyday" existence we do ourselves a limiting disservice to equate thinking with consciousness. I do not see that this immediately leads us to throwing out the baby with the bathwater as Anonymous maintains. Within their sphere tools are helpful but to extend their usefulness beyond their limited realm is the hallmark of human hubris. A butter knife serves us well when applied to a piece of toast. It may prove to be adequate when it comes to steak but its utility diminishes rapidly when it comes to constructing a building. We can continually devise ever more sophisticated tools to meet a given set of requirements but by their nature they limit us to the very requirements we ourselves have identified through cognition. As uncomfortable as the notion may be consciousness cannot be subsumed by the tools of thought. BPDecafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10120844967892870391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-10442757118216758482013-03-03T17:32:24.588+00:002013-03-03T17:32:24.588+00:00BPDecaf: "You underline the point and I again...BPDecaf: "You underline the point and I again quote Alan Watts eloquent explanation of why these kinds of discussions about 'consciousness' go round and round in an imprisoning circle"<br /><br />Watts has a point but there is a danger in taking what he is saying too literally. <br /><br />If you literally believe in a world-as-it-is which is beyond the ability of consciousness to understand through observation and measurement, and truly consider the world that is measured and observed as illusory, then you've just thrown all human knowledge into a metaphysical abyss.<br /><br />It's important to draw a distinction between symbols and what they represent, but there is a danger in taking this so far that it becomes the basis of reality. Reality is what we know, whether our knowledge is complete or not, everything else is metaphysics.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-28026551667476707022013-03-02T20:57:59.890+00:002013-03-02T20:57:59.890+00:00Fyi: I think you would be surprised at just how co...Fyi: I think you would be surprised at just how common vi (vim) is nowadays. It is one of the more popular editors around.<br /><br />As far as installing a virtual machine of Unix is concerned, certainly I do it with Linux and BSD (Unix) all the time. Anyone familiar with that 1970s Unix you refer to would be completely at home in either of those (they would not have to learn any new commands!)<br />Oscar R.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-5102404168211637072013-03-01T15:37:11.008+00:002013-03-01T15:37:11.008+00:00Consciousness and the brain have, in my view, a pe...Consciousness and the brain have, in my view, a peripheral relationship. That being said this bit of news may provide an interesting addition to the discussion: http://m.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/28/brains-rats-connected-share-information BPDecafhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10120844967892870391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-35007538402249086882013-03-01T02:02:48.913+00:002013-03-01T02:02:48.913+00:00Me too.
:)Me too.<br /><br />:)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07745338860754330263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-4795135209004927482013-02-27T23:06:58.628+00:002013-02-27T23:06:58.628+00:00So my answer to
"Could we experience the work...So my answer to<br />"Could we experience the workings of our own brains"<br />seems to be no -- unless "experience" means understanding exotic maths and machinery like the LHC.<br /><br />The argument is, I think, comprehensible even if you are not a theoretical physicist. (I'm not either.)<br /><br />Fundamental research can lead in unexpected directions. Maybe LHC research will someday have an effect on the development of Artifical Intelligence. Maybe. :-)<br /><br />Thanks for the thread, I enjoyed it a lot.<br />Best wishes.<br /><br />James Ingramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01671056946980718169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-77168504780502541472013-02-27T15:50:12.428+00:002013-02-27T15:50:12.428+00:00Well the whole problem with unifying gravity with ...Well the whole problem with unifying gravity with everything else calls for some wild ideas, like up to twenty four dimensions folded into themselves. Plus string theory, which is my favourite one right now.<br /><br />I haven't revisited the LHC website for a while, so I'm not exactly up to speed with current results.<br /><br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07745338860754330263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-27355393372927147162013-02-27T15:26:26.796+00:002013-02-27T15:26:26.796+00:00So, for instance. Would memories for sounds be app...So, for instance. Would memories for sounds be approximately local to the areas where sound is processed? Ditto for vision and taste etc.<br /><br />I had known of the association problem where stroke victims would recognise objects and faces, but couldn't name them or like you say, say what colour it was. The Chinese you mentioned is a very interesting, that ideograms aren't in the same category as western symbols.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07745338860754330263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-38858243458731436562013-02-27T11:01:50.169+00:002013-02-27T11:01:50.169+00:00Here's an attempt to be more 'scientific&#...Here's an attempt to be more 'scientific' in the above sense:<br />A stronger version of my original hypothesis would be to propose that there is another dimension beyond space and time. Lets call it "xyz". This is something which by definition cannot be perceived by my physical senses.<br /><br />This is like proposing that the Earth is not flat, but has a third dimension, without having the technical means to test the proposal.<br />The proposal is initially "un-scientific" but becomes testable as our tools improve (ocean-going ships).<br /><br />I think that the universe is basically information, and that pure mathematics is a window on that, so I would expect mathematical descriptions of LHC observations which included "xyz" to be particularly elegant.<br />The difficulty is, of course, to know when we are seeing "xyz" in the (man-made) mathematical descriptions. Even calling it a "dimension" is very brain-centric.<br /><br />That's why I was deliberately vague in my original formulation as to what the brain is simplifying.<br /> James Ingramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01671056946980718169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-25541784765954491932013-02-27T10:20:36.041+00:002013-02-27T10:20:36.041+00:00Virtual machines are software too. Enough people h...Virtual machines are software too. Enough people have to know about, and want to use, the legacy software, otherwise the virtual machine gets forgotten/lost.<br /><br />But maybe you are right, and there will always be virtual machines for simulating older environments. Computer museums would iterested in that, as hardware components break and become irreplaceable.<br /><br />Everyday use is something else. If I were 40 years younger, I wouldn't bother with installing and using a virtual 1970s UNIX system just so that I could use their "vi" text editor. I'd just learn and use the most convenient editor I can get my hands on. "vi" gets forgotten.<br /><br />I'm writing open-source software, but I dont think that automatically makes it 'immortal'. :-)<br />Its like writing a book. Most books get forgotten. Its the concepts they describe that have a chance of becoming part of other/younger people's culture.<br /><br />I think we've drifted a bit off topic here, but the subject is so big that its worth taking a look at some context.James Ingramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01671056946980718169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-8348421325296716042013-02-27T03:46:59.482+00:002013-02-27T03:46:59.482+00:00What you loose with a brain lesion depends on what...What you loose with a brain lesion depends on what gets hit. The mechanics of memory isn't well understood, but it's clear that a memories are not stored as little atomic facts but as associations, and invoking those associations requires the multiple areas that use the memory. If you could remember you owned a red car and had a lesion in the colour processing part of the cortex you might no longer remember the actual colour red but might have a declarative memory of owning a "red" car. So have you forgotten the red car? It depends what you mean. There was an interesting case of a bilingual Chinese man who, after a stroke, forgot how to read Chinese but could still read English. Ideographic text processing uses an additional brain area to alphabetic text processing and he lost this area: so he forgot how to read Chinese. His knowledge of how to read the Chinese was localised.<br /><br />This is different to punching a hole out of a holographic image of a toy red car: you might loose one viewing angle but you could still reliably see the complete car. The image is completely and "evenly" spread across the whole holographic image. Human memory is a bit more like having a cluster of information about something with elements stored in different locations. You can loose a chunk of data in a brain lesion and retain the cluster but careful analysis would show that something went missing.Jim Birchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07415199338332642534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-63545772287812921052013-02-27T02:02:12.722+00:002013-02-27T02:02:12.722+00:00"but the context in which such programs are r..."but the context in which such programs are run (operating system) changes. So that works against their continued use."<br /><br />Thank goodness we have virtual machines. I wouldn't be able to run legacy 16-bit software on my 64-bit OS without it.<br /><br />Operating system changes aren't a big deal if it's open source. Software doesn't die at the whim of controlling party. This was a problem when I used to be a Mac OS-X user.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07745338860754330263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-134421897768044772013-02-26T22:39:36.961+00:002013-02-26T22:39:36.961+00:00I have a belief system, but I wouldn't agree t...I have a belief system, but I wouldn't agree to it being called religious. Metaphysical maybe.<br />I think metaphysics are unavoidable. Nobody knows everything. Conjectures are necessary at the edges of our knowledge. If we make no hypotheses, nobody gets anywhere. We end up with a boring, unrealistically static world.<br />As far as I'm concerned, Popper was right, and "Conjectures & Refutations" is the way to make progress in the sciences.<br /><br />Yes, I do believe in progress... and entropy in our tangible world. :-)<br /><br />Obviously, science would rather have falsifiable conjectures. I have no idea if my basic hypothesis is falsifiable (is scientific) or not. Either way, it keeps me happy while I get on with other things. :-)<br /><br />"If [our own creations] out-live us, then what?"<br />We become immortal of course. :-)<br /><br />James Ingramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01671056946980718169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-87081472246028779282013-02-26T21:29:48.943+00:002013-02-26T21:29:48.943+00:00Interesting that languages are longer lived than t...Interesting that languages are longer lived than the individuals that use them. English has been recognizably the 'same language' for over 500 years, but its changing nonetheless.<br /><br />Talking to machines is a very new development. Wikipedia says:<br />[Lisp was] "Originally specified 1958..." and<br />"Lisp has changed a great deal since its early days, and a number of dialects have existed over its history."<br />Programming languages change as we learn more about how to write software. New languages are developed, and the old ones can stabilize. I doubt if languages stabilize if they are continuing to be used. If you use a language, you find ways to improve it.<br /><br />The programs themselves are on a different level, of course. Some may be simple enough to be useful beyond their authors' lifetime (simple text editors maybe), but the context in which such programs are run (operating system) changes. So that works against their continued use. One uses an equivalent program, better adapted to the environment.<br />James Ingramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01671056946980718169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-73391953402498420342013-02-26T20:25:41.081+00:002013-02-26T20:25:41.081+00:00Of course I mean inanimate creations.
Our kids ho...Of course I mean inanimate creations.<br /><br />Our kids hopefully do outlive us.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07745338860754330263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-16930248206192840842013-02-26T19:59:16.652+00:002013-02-26T19:59:16.652+00:00Your view of entropy appears to be at odds with mi...Your view of entropy appears to be at odds with mine.<br /><br />But I get the impression maybe your belief system is one of religion. So you probably see things from a different viewpoint.<br /><br />As for the creation of a sentient being, I don't believe it's possible either. But more importantly I don't want it to happen even if it were possible.<br /><br />Ultimately we are responsible for our own creations, and if they out-live us, then what?<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07745338860754330263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-67593526959877627572013-02-26T18:09:13.026+00:002013-02-26T18:09:13.026+00:00Entropy is something we observe with our senses. I...Entropy is something we observe with our senses. It says something about our experience of space and time. We can't say anything about it otherwise.<br /><br />I don't think the universe is static - on the contrary, there must be something spacey and timey about it, otherwise we wouldn't see it that way at all.<br />Calling it 'static' is temporal, sense-centred language. And I think we'd also be on shakey ground trying to say that there is a simple arrow of time (defined by everyday entropy).<br /><br />"What information?"<br />The only way to describe it is, I think, with pure mathematics. But pure mathematics evolves too. Mathematicians can be very creative. :-)<br />James Ingramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01671056946980718169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-54713688706378298202013-02-26T17:26:35.296+00:002013-02-26T17:26:35.296+00:00OK, the life span of computers has nothing to do w...OK, the life span of computers has nothing to do with out-and-out failure rates. Just obsolescence in the eye of the beholder.<br /><br />Software, well that requires a whole book to catalogue the failure rate. But it's mostly down to incomplete knowledge 'how to build/write' correct software. 60yrs on and the programming language Lisp is still in common use.<br /><br />'All living things, including brains, are born, and die.'<br /><br />Thankfully ideas live on, and thanks to modern medicine some lives are prolonged beyond there function. I'd rather die early than get alzheimers. (if you get my drift)<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07745338860754330263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-53569934860705072212013-02-26T15:42:06.283+00:002013-02-26T15:42:06.283+00:00Just for the record. I don't subscribe to the ...Just for the record. I don't subscribe to the mystical or metaphysical theories.<br /><br />Just physics, chemistry and biology.<br /> Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07745338860754330263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-38810142624265325592013-02-26T15:35:34.457+00:002013-02-26T15:35:34.457+00:00Even more intriguing...
Do new experiences/memori...Even more intriguing...<br /><br />Do new experiences/memories get stored wholesale, or just the differences from what is already learned?<br /><br />Personally I believe it's the latter. As the saying goes, 'you can't run before you can walk'Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07745338860754330263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-75920959060344088462013-02-26T15:31:02.094+00:002013-02-26T15:31:02.094+00:00@James Ingram
"My own belief is that space an...@James Ingram<br />"My own belief is that space and time are a strategy the brain uses to reduce complexity.<br /><br />If we didn't have space and time, our senses would be clogged with information overload."<br /><br />That sounds like space and time are a manifestation of the mind, which without our senses, would be a satifactory conclusion.<br /><br />What information? The tendency toward disorder (entropy) has no facility to change/evolve without space to expand into.<br /><br />No space = no *new* information. (stasis)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07745338860754330263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-28718839621926739232013-02-26T13:04:48.050+00:002013-02-26T13:04:48.050+00:00So how do people who suffered a brain lesion retai...So how do people who suffered a brain lesion retain most of their memories?<br /><br />That's the analogy with holograms. Memory is spread out, not localised. Which suggests that the wave nature of electrons plays some role with respect to parallel operation. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07745338860754330263noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-31848128702130025942013-02-26T10:09:20.488+00:002013-02-26T10:09:20.488+00:00I have a great deal of respect for research like t...I have a great deal of respect for research like that, but suspect that the brain is not actually doing parallel processing.<br />They'll probably end up with something useful (powerful robots) without actually simulating a brain.<br /><br />Further to what I said above:<br />All living things, including brains, are born, and die. I think its likely that these two events are intrinsic.<br /><br />In other words, I think its unlikely that robot research will lead to the creation of immortal beings. :-)<br /><br />Actually, in my experience, current computers have a life span of about 3 years.<br />Software is a bit different. It can live/evolve on different computers. But software also has a life-cycle. At some point, replacement software gets written from scratch.<br />James Ingramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01671056946980718169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20402273.post-24287577956958675622013-02-26T00:38:24.515+00:002013-02-26T00:38:24.515+00:00The hologram is a fluffy analogy for brain process...The hologram is a fluffy analogy for brain processes that was handy at the time. It's a bit mystical. For a start a brain bleeds if you cut it. It's better to think of the brain as a computer with multiple connected subsystems running in parallel with a lot of redundancy and fault tolerance. A holographic image is actually stored at every location on the film, but this is not true of the brain. It is true that a complex memory is not stored at a single point in the brain but this is a quite different to it being stored everywhere.Jim Birchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07415199338332642534noreply@blogger.com